Jay Ingram:
Hey, how are you? Yeah. You’re a good dog, eh?
Allison Sekuler:
That’s my co-host, Jay Ingram, and his dog Robbie. Today, we’re investigating how pets, like Robbie, might have our backs as we try to Defy Dementia. And Robbie’s here to help us sniff out clues.
Jay Ingram:
Welcome to Defy Dementia, the podcast for anyone who has a brain.
Allison Sekuler:
Defy Dementia is all about living in ways that keep our brains healthy and reduce our risk of dementia. And that’s because dementia is not dictated by our genes. Genetics can play a role, but lifestyle risk factors like lack of exercise and loneliness can also have a major impact.
Jay Ingram:
The best scientific evidence tells us that if we make healthy changes to key lifestyle factors, we could reduce dementia cases worldwide by at least 45%.
Allison Sekuler:
And today on the show, we’re looking into how our animal companions might play a big part in realizing that 45% figure by helping boost our brain health.
Jay Ingram:
We’re also going to explore how robot pets could fill the role of companion for a person living with dementia when looking after a flesh and blood pet is no longer feasible.
I’m Jay Ingram, I’m a science author and broadcaster. I’ve been fascinated by the human brain for most of my career, and as you’ll hear, I’m curious about pets too and their brains.
Allison Sekuler:
I am Allison Sekuler, and I’m also curious about brains and pets. I’m the president and chief scientist at the Baycrest Academy for Research and Education, and at the Centre for Aging and Brain Health Innovation.
Jay Ingram:
Join us as we Defy Dementia, because you’re never too young or too old to take care of your brain.
Allison Sekuler:
According to a 2022 pet industry study, it is likely that there are over a billion pet dogs and cats in the world.
Jay Ingram:
An incredible number. There are a lot of pets in Canada too. According to a 2024 Government of Canada report, in more than 17 million Canadian households, roughly four in 10 have a cat, and almost the same proportion have a dog. And we also have 2.5 million birds, 8.6 million fish, 1.2 million small mammals, and nearly a quarter of a million reptiles.
Allison Sekuler:
We are underrepresented in terms of reptiles, but today we’re looking at the impact of pets on brain health. And we’re doing that not only because it’s a fascinating topic, but also because my cohost here, Jay Ingram, has a new book out on the topic of pets. And in case you don’t know, Jay is already the bestselling author of 21 science books, and his latest book is The Science of Pets. Jay, can you give us a quick description of the book?
Jay Ingram:
Yeah, I think first of all, you can never talk about pets without taking the accompanying human or humans into account. And while the numbers show that dogs and cats are by no means the only pets, they’re the ones that we scrutinize scientifically the most. And to me, the most important questions are things like, why are we the only species that keeps pets? When did pet keeping begin? And crucially, why do we do it? And I think we may find out the answer to that last question today. Pet owning may just provide the emotional and mental boost that we discuss here a lot on the podcast.
Allison Sekuler:
I bet that’s true. And in previous episodes of the show, we have explored how being social and getting lots of exercise and well-being are all different factors that reduce dementia risk, and those are all things that can come along with having an animal companion. So when you were researching the book, did you find much discussion in the literature about how pets might help us boost brain health and maybe even defy dementia?
Jay Ingram:
It’s not really a simple picture in that there’s pretty good evidence that pets may improve physical health and even happiness. But when it comes to defying dementia, I think the evidence is still emerging. And I wanted to explore that more, so I set out on an investigation with my dog, Robbie.
Allison Sekuler:
And here’s that story. We take you now to Victoria, British Columbia, to Jay’s home where it is early morning, and the day is just beginning for Jay and Robbie.
Jay Ingram:
Robbie, breakfast? Okay, out you go. Go on. Now, got to be quick. Get his dish. A cup of kibble, a little bit of water just to give it some moisture. That’s just a habit of ours, I don’t think he really needs it. Put it down. Now, then let’s just, oh, he’s right here. Now, he may have peed, or he may have pretended to pee. Okay, come on. I’ve caught him doing it twice, going out to about a few feet waiting and pretending to pee and coming back more quickly because he knows breakfast is ready.
Robbie loves his food. That’s obvious, but there’s lots about him that mystifies me, so I spend a lot of time trying to figure him out, which is probably great exercise for my brain. This morning, I’m on a mission to find out more ways that Robbie may help bolster my brain health. I’ve invited an expert to guide me on this quest. She’ll be here soon.
He’s never sure when we’re going to take him for a walk, so he’s pretty calm at this point. He’s had his breakfast, and after all, at this point in the morning, that’s all that counts.
Robbie is a Woodle. That means he’s half poodle, half Wheaten terrier. I wouldn’t say this in earshot of him, but the poodle part of him is quite charming. The terrier part, not so much. That part is stubborn, very focused. If he’s interested in something and you want him to do something else, he pretends he doesn’t hear you. Sometimes I think he’s untrainable, but the truth might be that we just haven’t done a good job of training him. Fortunately, he’s a very affectionate dog, and I am very fond of him.
Hey, how are you? Yeah, you’re a good dog, eh?
Most of the time, that’s about all the sound you’ll hear him make. He’s a very quiet dog except when.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Hello. Hi, there. Oh, you, yes. Aren’t you adorable? And so awake in the morning. Hi.
Jay Ingram:
Hi, Theone.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Hi, nice to meet you.
Jay Ingram:
I’m Jay. Actually, he went past you to make sure there weren’t any other people with you.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, yes. Got to make sure you get everybody and sniff everyone up.
Jay Ingram:
Okay. Come on in, Robbie.
Dr. Theone Patterson is an Associate Professor at the University of Victoria.
That’s it? You’ve checked her out and she’s okay?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
It’s good, I’m good? Do I smell like kitty cats? Maybe. Well, he’s a cutie. He looks like he’s ready for a walk.
Jay Ingram:
Oh, he’s definitely, and you know what? So the way he’s bouncing around, people think he’s a puppy.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Yeah. How old is he?
Jay Ingram:
He’s six and a half.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, he’s puppy-like for sure. He’s got spunk.
Jay Ingram:
You know what’s exciting? We’re getting in the car, going for a car ride. We’re going to go to Parker Park. Have you been there?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
No, I don’t think I have, actually.
Jay Ingram:
It’s a long stretch of beach, so it’s perfect for dog walking.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
That’s great, yeah.
Jay Ingram:
There are usually dogs. It’s not crowded with dogs, but I’m sure we’ll meet some.
Theone is joining me because she researches how the brain ages, and how lifestyle factors and behavior can influence that process. Her goal is to figure out how we can make changes that help extend our lives and keep the brain healthy for as long as possible.
Jay Ingram:
Do you think that we’ve made good progress in understanding those factors that lead to improved brain health?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
I mean, I think there certainly has been progress. We have the Lancet Commission reports, and the update from last year from the Lancet Commission, which is showing that about 45% of dementia may be prevented with modifiable lifestyle changes. And if we can identify more of that risk, maybe 60% or so on and so forth, we can hopefully prevent more dementias and improve quality of life as people age, which would be fantastic.
Jay Ingram:
Now, you’re a cat owner, right?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
I am, yes. I have two.
Jay Ingram:
And do you feel personally that you are enhancing your brain health in some way by having two companion cats?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
I do, yeah.
Jay Ingram:
Maybe I’m assuming they’re companions.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, they’re definitely companions. They’re actually my adopted pets. They’re my partner’s. But yes, I think that they do definitely contribute to a lot of wellbeing. Because you’ve always got this animal with you. They are asking for attention, they’re keeping you company. We know that social interactions are important for cognitive health as well as physical health, and so I think even though we’re not necessarily taking them out on long walks or things like that like you would with a dog, they’re there and there’s somebody that you can be talking to, which I definitely do talk to my animals.
Jay Ingram:
Oh yeah, well.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
I think almost everybody does.
Jay Ingram:
I think I even used to talk to the pair of lizards I owned at one point, but do your cats go outside?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
They’re not outdoor cats, they’re definitely indoor cats, but we do let them out on the deck. We have one who likes to go for walks and will pretty much ask at the door to go out, so he goes out on a harness with my partner usually. But it’s a little bit different than walking a dog. He will stop to smell all the flowers, and he will usually maybe make it to the end of the block before it’s time to come back in about a 20-minute timeframe. He’s not like a dog by any means, there’s no cardio activity happening. But oftentimes he’ll also have admirers who come up to say hello to him, and then that becomes a social interaction. Decreasing social isolation is good as we age. That’s certainly going to have an impact on cognitive health.
Jay Ingram:
Well, we’re here in the parking lot of Parker Park and there’s not a single car, so it might be you and me doing this social interaction.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
All right. Well, we’ll see.
Jay Ingram:
Okay. All right, let’s go.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, he’s ready.
Jay Ingram:
Now, Robbie’s been here often, so he’ll know exactly where to go, won’t you? He may look like a typical dog, but we think he has some unusual behaviors. We’ll see if any of them show up.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Okay.
Jay Ingram:
The first part of this little walk is we descend a bunch of stairs, so we are getting some exercise.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Yeah, that’s great physical activity.
Jay Ingram:
Yes, physical activity is part of the benefits of having a pet. But the other thing I think is really important is what is called green bathing, but it’s not exactly green here because we’re at the ocean, but it’s just being exposed to nature.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Yes.
Jay Ingram:
And there’s something, I mean, every person living in Victoria, I’m sure experiences this at one time or another, but just the sound of the waves rolling in. I feel like it’s a calming influence, and it looks like the evidence is pretty good that by exposing ourselves to nature, we’re doing ourselves some good.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Yes. I would definitely agree. There’s certainly research to indicate that green bathing or forest bathing or that type of exposure, and even smaller doses in city parks and things like that has an impact on well-being. And then there’s also a little bit of research to indicate that forest bathing can have a positive cognitive effect as well.
Jay Ingram:
We’ve got an amazing amount of kelp that’s been washed up on shore here.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, yeah.
Jay Ingram:
Let’s let him off the leash and see what he does. I won’t predict, but I think he’s going to run like crazy.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, there he goes.
Jay Ingram:
Yeah. But sometimes it’s funny, he’ll run, he won’t stop. He’ll just run and run and run. But now he seems to be finding…. he’s probably finding a place to poo.
Jay Ingram:
We’ve talked about a couple of the [benefits of having an animal as a companion, including its cognitive and mental effects, being physically active, and spending time in nature.] Is there any way of arranging those in terms of importance?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, that I don’t know. That’s a really good question, the Lancet Commission does talk about times in life where these different [risk factors] may be important. When you talk about habit building, obviously the earlier you can build any of these habits, the better off you’re going to be.
Jay Ingram:
That is to me, one of the really big challenges. My kids are in their mid-thirties, and trying to interest them in doing things to lower the risk of dementia really never hit home.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Right, yes. It’s so far off at that stage.
Jay Ingram:
I’m sure that you and I really didn’t think about it [at their age].
Dr. Theone Patterson:
No.
Jay Ingram:
I didn’t, either. And I think a lot about whether there is a way of convincing or at least persuading young people of the importance of [those risk factors]. It may not be possible or easy to convince people in their twenties and thirties about their importance, but do you think something like a pet might, without their knowing it, have a positive influence?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
I would think that. I don’t think that age is going to matter for all of the positive potential impacts on physical activity, on socialization, well-being just in general. I think also in midlife, depression and things like that are risk factors as well, and so if a pet can have any type of positive impact on our psychological well-being early on to prevent that kind of stuff or even lessen it, then that’s going to be great.
Jay Ingram:
That’s a really good point, because from what I’ve been reading, depression is perhaps on the rise among young people.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Right.
Jay Ingram:
And even if it isn’t, it’s still more common than you might think.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Yes, it is quite common I think in our society at this point. Anxiety as well. And yes, certainly anything we can do to improve our mental health at any age I think is going to be helpful, and I think it seems that pets do have a positive impact in that regard.
Jay Ingram:
Although I would argue that pets can, especially [my dog], be frustrating.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
They certainly can. But also, it’s keeping your mind active, you’re keeping up with all the things the pet is needing to do. If they’re apt to destroy a slipper at 3:00 PM, then you’re on guard and thinking about that, and that’s probably helping you keep a little bit sharper from an attention and a memory perspective. And also getting outside and moving , putting one foot in front of the other , you’re watching to make sure you’re not tripping over any rocks. You’re watching your dog Robbie to make sure that he’s not eating something he shouldn’t or something like that. All of that is cognitive stimulation.
Jay Ingram:
That’s interesting because I think most people would say, “Well, when I’m doing the crossword, I’m exercising an area of my brain that I’m definitely not using when I’m out with my dog.” But I can see what you’re saying, if you have a dog and he or she is off leash, you have to be paying attention all the time.
Here’s a good example actually, of cognitive activity. We’ve got a vast ocean on one side, and my dog is instead interested in water coming out of a pipe and running across the beach, and I don’t want him to drink that because I don’t know the source. And so instead of just letting him drink it, I’m trying to keep him away from the water.
Yeah, no, you can’t. Why are you growling at me? I’m trying to keep you healthy. You don’t know the difference between potable water and do you know the definition of potable water? No. You see, they’re not that great. Okay, enough.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Well, so to him now, that’s a game, which is great. I mean, that actually might be a good example of how a pet could keep you cognitively healthy, is that if they instigate a game, and you realize that it’s a game, then you’re going to start playing. You’re going to think about, “Okay, well how can I outsmart him next? How can I do X, Y, or Z?” Which is, again, thinking. It’s just keeping your brain active and moving and all the moving parts, all those cogs.
Jay Ingram:
Theone, we came here and I fully anticipated it. Hey, hey, hey.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
There he goes.
Jay Ingram:
No, no, no, no. Oh, you see, that’s actually amazing that he responded. He’s not a responsive dog. It’s only quite recently that he’ll actually come when we call him.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Oh, yeah.
Jay Ingram:
We’ve talked about a lot of aspects, positive aspects of pet owning, but as you’ve indicated, there are still some areas that we really need more knowledge. So if you had to make a state-of-the-art statement about the importance of pets for cognitive health, what would you say?
Dr. Theone Patterson:
As a pet owner, I’m probably biased, but I would say, if anything, it’s going to be helpful for all of the things that we have talked about, the improved well-being, the improved social interactions with others related to your pet. Even if it’s just a vet visit for a cat, you’re still out there interacting with somebody. The cognitive stimulation, the physical activity, all of those things.
Jay Ingram:
And even green bathing or whatever term we want to use. Just getting out here. And I mean, here we are, we’re on a beach in the Pacific Ocean, and the sun is just coming up from behind the clouds. You’d have to be a pretty hard-nosed human being not to appreciate the value.
Dr. Theone Patterson:
Yeah.
Jay Ingram:
And as it turns out, it’s more than you just perceive. It’s a sense that you have.
Hey, Robbie, come here. Come on. Come on. I mean, I have to say, it amuses me that he ignores me so much. Do you remember who I am? Come here. Come on. Here. Good dog, chase a stone.
Allison Sekuler:
I really wish I could have been there with you guys on the beach. What do you feel like you learned on that walk?
Jay Ingram:
Well, I think there’s pretty firm evidence that, for example, walking a dog is beneficial to health, both for the dog and the human. As we know, fitness is a hedge against dementia. And as Theone pointed out, there are emotional and cognitive benefits too, which also contribute to brain health. But again, as I said earlier, a direct link to lowering the risk for dementia is still a little bit elusive. There just haven’t been enough studies.
Allison Sekuler:
Definitely not enough studies, but I can relate to that feeling of connection with your pet. I had for 17 years, a border terrier named Archie, who was one of the loves of my life. And you would have the worst possible day, you’d come home and there he was. It’s like unconditional love, instantly raising your mood. And in addition to the exercise and the emotional connection, I did find it also enhanced my social connections because you’d be walking out and if your dog is cute like mine was, people would just come up to you on the street and ask you questions about it. You’d make friends instantly.
Jay Ingram:
I’ve noticed that, when somebody with a dog approaches me with Robbie, I tend to talk more to their dog than to the person. I’m not sure that counts as a social interaction. But now, your dog lived an incredibly long time. How did you feel, not just when he died but say a year later, did you still have a sense that you missed him?
Allison Sekuler:
Oh, I still miss him today. It’s been about a decade. That’s the hole that’ll never get filled. I also miss the requirements to get out there and go walking with him. I do feel like having him helped with my mental health and my well-being, but I have gotten to the point where I’m so busy. I don’t feel it’d be fair to get another dog at this point.
Jay Ingram:
No, it is difficult. This is a common feeling. Canadian supermodel Lauren Chan just had an article in The Globe and Mail saying how much her dog has transformed in a positive way her very famous life. Now, obviously that’s not science, but human testimony I think is important too.
Allison Sekuler:
Knowing all of this human testimony, as a science journalist, you already know so much about biology and animals to begin with. Was there anything else that surprised you when you were researching and writing this science of pets?
Jay Ingram:
I think the science on pets is starting to grow. And I’ll just cite one example, the dog aging project that’s going on in the US. It’s about a year now that they’ve been collecting data and they’re starting to get some sense of what drives aging in dogs from a chemical molecular point of view. And in the long run, it’ll probably start to become quite clear just exactly what goes on as dogs age. But I’m sure that much of the information will apply to mammals, including humans, so it’s a really interesting study.
Allison Sekuler:
Well, congratulations on the book.
Jay Ingram:
Thank you. Up to now, we’ve been talking about how pets may help boost brain health, and how they may even play a role in helping prevent dementia. But what about after a diagnosis of dementia? Of course, a pet can be a great companion for someone living with dementia, but there’s usually a point where caring for a living animal is just too much. Could a robot pet take the place of a living one? Can it provide the same benefits as the living version?
Allison Sekuler:
Our next guest is an expert in that very area. Dr. Lillian Hung is an Associate Professor in the School of Nursing at the University of British Columbia, where she holds the Canada Research Chair in Senior Care. Dr. Hung is also the founder of the IDEA Lab at UBC. That’s where she leads a team exploring how robotic companions might support older adults and people living with dementia. And that team is not made up solely of scientists, it also includes people with lived experience of dementia and their caregivers. Dr. Lillian Hung joins us from Vancouver. Lillian, thank you for helping us Defy Dementia.
Lillian Hung:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor, and I think this is going to be fun.
Allison Sekuler:
We think so too. My first question for you is what struck you about Jay’s walk with Robbie?
Lillian Hung:
I think that that’s a really wonderful thing to be able to have a pet, and it gives a sense of purpose to the person, whether you have dementia or not. And everyone needs a sense of purpose, that’s why you get up for the day. You have a dog to care for, and someone to enjoy love with. It’s not just about giving love, but it’s also receiving love. It’s so fundamental to any human being.
Allison Sekuler:
Lillian, some people in our audience might’ve visited long-term care homes and seen residents interacting in different ways with robotic companions, but for other folks, that might be a really new idea. So why robots? Why do we need robot pets?
Lillian Hung:
Well, some of the things are very similar to a real dog, like what I mentioned about the basic fundamental need of a human being to be able to give love and receive love. Now, we use robotic pets in long-term care in the hospital, we use it for group activities, and we also use it for individuals. People can have robotic pets in their arms or on their bed. It’s interesting that when they start developing a relationship with this robotic pet, they become like the ambassador of the pet. They would tell other people about the robotic pet so it’s kind of like a dog owner. You’re so proud of your dog. So you would tell people about your dog. It’s like a conversation topic, and people will talk about it all the time. It promotes social connections between human and human, not just the robot and the human.
Another great advantage of having the robotic pet is sometimes when people have trouble articulating the language, especially people who are in their later stage of dementia. It makes them feel safe to talk to the robotic pet and to interact with the robotic pet. A robotic pet gives you unconditional love. You pet it, and open its big eyes and ask for love, but it doesn’t judge you because your sentence doesn’t come out quite right. It really encourages the person to talk or to interact, and that’s really good for brain health, I think even for the people in the later stage of dementia.
Jay Ingram:
Lillian, can you describe one of these robotic companions?
Lillian Hung:
Yes, in the nursing home people probably have seen robots like cats and dogs but I have been working with a robotic pet called PARO, P-A-R-O. It’s a robotic seal and it’s AI-enabled. PARO uses machine learning to learn about interactions with the person, so it remembers how you pet it and also has a bank of words so it would be able to personalize the interaction with the individuals. PARO has beautiful eyes, so when it turns his head and opens his big eyes to look at you, it’s just pretty hard to resist not to love it.
Jay Ingram:
Lillian, you test robotic companions in your lab, what are you looking for?
Lillian Hung:
In my lab, we do a lot of implementation science. We want to understand how a robotic pet can be used in a formal care setting, like in the hospital, in long-term care, which is a very complex organization. We also want to understand the person’s experience. We work very closely with people living with dementia. They are our co-researchers. They help us to use the methods that would work for them. We use a lot of videos. We’ll film how a group of long-term care residents are using the robotic pet, and then we’ll take the footage back to allow the research team, including the person with dementia to look at it. They help us to understand what it means when we have a robotic pet in the nursing home environment or in the hospital environment and how that may help the person.
Allison Sekuler:
You’ve worked with a lot of robot companions, but you’ve also got some experience with therapy animals in care settings. Is there something different or unique about a flesh and blood animal? How do robots stack up when it comes to actually connecting with people who are living with dementia?
Lillian Hung:
I think accessibility is a big advantage of these robotic pets. It can be there for that person continuously. The therapy dog only comes once a week at best. Availability is a big issue. If in the middle of the night, someone is very anxious. The robotic pet is available. Having the robot available for personal use is also another huge advantage because if you have the chance that a therapy dog comes once a week, it’s hard to develop a relationship. On top of that people may have memory impairment so it’s a nice addition in long-term care. A lot of time when the staff work with the person, it’s about physical care, but having a robotic pet, that’s emotional, psychological care, and it’s often needed.
Jay Ingram:
Lillian, I guess robotic pets can be used when an individual can’t really take proper care of a real pet, but do they actually replace a real pet, or do they actually offer benefits?
Lillian Hung:
Yes, these robotic pets are very good with stress reductions. To answer your question, maybe I’ll give you an example. I work in a hospital. One time we had this patient that came in with an acute cardiac condition. He was in a lot of pain and he developed delirium. He didn’t want any of the medical staff to go near him. When a lab technician wanted to take some blood and do an EKG, he’ll kick them. So it was very difficult to provide care. In a situation like that, we often have two options. We can force the care, which can be very stressful and traumatic for the person and also for the medical team. Or we let him be. But ethically, we know this is wrong. This person needs care. So I brought PARO to him. He looked at the robot and he started to pet it. And when you pet it, The robot seal turns his head towards you and opens his big eyes. [And the patient looked at the robot seal] and asked “Have you had anything to eat?” This was the first time he talked. The medical staff pushed the cart over and then took an EKG and were able to get a blood sample. It’s just so nice to see that happen. Robotic pets can be used sometimes for this kind of acute crisis situation where a real dog may not be available. But the robotic pet can do the trick.
Jay Ingram:
Nevertheless, there are some people who think there’s a stigma around using robotic animals rather than real animals. You’ve written about that. Can you explain what the basis for that stigma is?
Lillian Hung:
Yes, some families do not appreciate having robotic pets. They often associate these pets with dementia and may think, “I don’t want my dad to use a robotic pet because it will make him look undignified or like a child—he doesn’t need that.” I have also read literature proposing that advance care directives should specify that they do not want a robotic pet when they reach that stage, because they feel it would compromise their dignity. This shows that there is a deep stigma associated with robotic pets.
Jay Ingram:
Why do you feel it’s important to counteract or shut down that stigma against robotic companions?
Lillian Hung:
Well, Jay, it’s about social justice and equity. A person with dementia should have the same rights as anyone else if they understand what it means to interact with a robotic pet. Often, in research, we rely on caregivers to make decisions about participation, which can prevent the person with dementia from taking part or accessing the robot. I’ve seen many times that when a resident watches others interacting with the robot during a study. They see that it’s fun and come to me asking, “Can I be a part of this? Can I pet the robot too?” Why shouldn’t they have the right to interact with it? While caregivers’ input is important, we also need to consider the views and perspectives of the person with dementia.
Jay Ingram:
As dementia progresses, people might get to the point where they don’t even know it’s a robot they’re socializing with. Should they be made aware of that? Does it matter?
Lillian Hung:
That’s a good question, Jay. When I bring a robotic pet, I always tell the person it’s a robot. We should never deceive the person, but it’s up to the person how they want to interact with the robot. 100% of the time, people treated the robot like a live animal with the way they talk to it, the way they pet it. It’s up to the person how they want to interact with it.
Allison Sekuler:
And now you’ve tested a whole range of different kinds of robots. Is it one-size-fits-all? or how do you help someone pick the right robot for them?
Lillian Hung:
I think this really depends on the person’s needs. There are people with all different kinds of backgrounds. Some may be in an early stage of disease and would want to do more things with the robot. Robots are designed to do all different kinds of things. With some you can take pictures, it could be doing home monitoring as well. Other people don’t really need all the sophisticated functions. PARO for example is simple and some people find it much easier to engage when the robotic pet doesn’t talk. Dementia often involves language impairments and I often see that people prefer a robot that doesn’t speak because it allows them to use their imagination and “speak” for the robot. This way, they aren’t challenged by the robot forming sentences, and the robot can interact with them at a pace that feels comfortable.
Allison Sekuler:
If you had to pick a robot companion for yourself, which one would you pick?
Lillian Hung:
My life is evolving. Right now, I’m healthy, and when I develop dementia, I might want a different type of robot. As I progress to more advanced stages of dementia, I might want another kind of robot. I like having variety. Right now, I have a tiny robot living in my home. It’s very accessible and proactive—it talks to me, tells me when it’s going to rain, and reminds me to bring an umbrella. That’s nice.
Jay Ingram:
Is cost an issue at all here? I could imagine these robots might be expensive.
Lillian Hung:
Yes, especially those with AI. They can be quite expensive. Accessibility is a big issue for people, but just like anything new. I think the designers are trying to look at making robots more affordable. I’m working with some of the new tiny robots. I have a little “rabbit” robot. It’s called AIBI and it’s about 400 American dollars. I’m seeing more robots in Asia and they are a lot more affordable. If a robot is simpler then the cost comes down.
Allison Sekuler:
Great to talk to you today. Thank you so much for joining us.
Jay Ingram:
Thank you.
Lillian Hung:
Oh, it’s been fun.
Allison Sekuler:
Dr. Lillian Hung is an Associate Professor in the School of Nursing and Founder of the IDEA Lab at the University of British Columbia. She joined us from Vancouver, British Columbia.
Jay Ingram:
Really fascinating ideas today about pets, both flesh and blood ones, and robot ones too. Can I say this, Allison? Lots of bones for us to chew on.
Allison Sekuler:
Oh, that’s a good one, or a bad one, I don’t know what to say about that one.
Jay Ingram:
You have some experience with robot pets though, right?
Allison Sekuler:
I do. We have robot pets, cats and dogs, and even some birds, no fish though, in the Centre for Aging and Brain Health Innovation space. And before the pandemic, there used to be a woman who would bring her mother down from our attached long-term care home. The mother basically was non-communicative, but the daughter would bring her down every single day to our CABHI lab space, and she would take one of the robot cats, turn it on and put it on the mother’s lap. As soon as the cat was in this woman’s lap, it’s as though she came to life and she started smiling. She still wouldn’t talk necessarily, but she would laugh and she would smile and she would move.
And during the pandemic, I was so concerned about this woman because she wasn’t able to come down and experience those moments of joy with the robot cat. The folks in the long-term care home and in CABHI arranged with the “Joy for All” people, who made these robots to distribute 75 cats and dogs robots to people all throughout our long-term care home. What was really interesting was that not only did these robot pets seem to soothe the residents, but it also started triggering some memories from their own pet experiences. Have you had a lot of experience with robot pets?
Jay Ingram:
No, but I’ve read a lot of arguments against them. One in particular, if you could call it an ethical argument, which runs along the lines that giving a person living with dementia a robot pet requires us either to delude them into thinking it’s real, or to encourage their own delusion. But frankly, like the story you just told, if it comforts people, and if that comfort is obvious, and it isn’t say distressing when the pet is taken away, I have no problem with that. If I were in that position and I had a pretty cool robot pet, and they’re going to get more and more sophisticated and more and more lifelike as we go on, I’d have no hesitation about having one.
Allison Sekuler:
I think if I had a choice, obviously I’d rather have a real pet. I mean, there’s just no replacing an Archie or a Robbie for the kind of love that they can give you and the interactions in real time that you can have. I mean, maybe we will get there with robots, but if I couldn’t take care of the dog anymore, couldn’t take it for walks, couldn’t keep it clean, et cetera, then I really do think that these robot pets are the next best thing.
Jay Ingram:
When I was writing the book, I was thinking quite a bit about that. I was trying to imagine the quality of the relationship that you could establish with a pet robot. And by thinking about that, I was paying even more attention to Robbie’s behavior and trying to see what behaviors evoke an emotional reaction in me. I wouldn’t describe him as a lapdog in any sense, but every once in a while, if I’m sitting on the sofa, he’ll come over and just lay his head on my leg and do nothing. Just make that physical contact. And I thought, boy, even if that were a robot, that would have an effect.
Allison Sekuler:
There’s a lot of research that suggests that people can form really strong emotional bonds with robots, even if they’re not pets. I lived for a couple of days with a robot called ElliQ. It doesn’t look anything like a human, it doesn’t have a face. When it speaks, there is a ring of light. It has a female-sounding voice. I remember I was in a hotel living alone with my robot there, and I would come home from a long day, and it’s a smart robot, so it would initiate conversation with you. And I would walk in the room and its little face would light up and it would ask, “How was your day?”
And so even that kind of a thing made me feel just over the course of a couple days so connected that when I had to put it back in the box, unplug it, pack it back up, I felt like I was murdering this poor robot. There really is something to those connections that you can feel.
Jay Ingram:
The most extraordinary examples I’ve read about come from the military. There are cases where a mine-detecting robot, designed to explode mines and get destroyed in the process, was used by soldiers who actually ran out and picked up the pieces of the robot and brought it back with them. There’s an emotional connection to a very unhuman-like metallic independent thing. So yeah, I think it’s a very powerful and probably not yet completely fully understood bond.
Allison Sekuler:
Yes and I guess you could probably say that you’re never too young or too old to look after your brain, or your pet, whether it’s an animal or a robot.
Jay Ingram:
I agree. To find out more about how we can all boost our brain health and reduce the risk of dementia or slow its progression, please visit us at defydementia.org.
Allison Sekuler:
Our podcast production team is Rosanne Aleong and Sylvain Dubroqua. Production is by PodTechs, and music is by Steve Dodd. Our cover art is by Amanda Forbis and Wendy Tilby. And our writer and chase producer is Ben Schaub. And a big thanks to Mary Ann Moser for helping to record the show.
Jay Ingram:
And as you heard, we recorded part of the show on an ocean side beach in Victoria, so to record safely, we needed accurate information about the rising tide. The experts at the Canadian Hydrographic Service in Sidney, British Columbia provided those precise forecasts for us, so thanks to them for that help.
Allison Sekuler:
We’d also like to thank the funders of this podcast, the Slaight Family Foundation, the Centre for Aging and Brain Health Innovation, and Baycrest.
Jay Ingram:
We’re also very grateful for your support too, so please click that subscribe button for Defy Dementia wherever you get your podcasts, and don’t forget to leave a like, a comment, or maybe even a five-star review.
Allison Sekuler:
Next time on Defy Dementia, a show for the holiday season.
Jay Ingram:
And we have a gift for you. An exploration of how giving one’s time as a volunteer does much more than benefit other people, it may also benefit your brain and help us all Defy Dementia.
Allison Sekuler:
I’m Allison Sekuler.
Jay Ingram:
I’m Jay Ingram. Thank you for listening to Defy Dementia, and don’t forget you’re never too young or too old to take care of your brain.